Frustratingly unrealistic scenario timings

[styckx]

So.. I'm sitting here playing some DTG written scenarios on newer routes... And for the love of god who is writing these? They should be reduced to writing manuals instead. I'm past expecting realistic AI but I'm dying here with the unrealistic scheduled timings of their scenarios included in $20-$40 payware.

1. If you follow proper procedure.. Don't move until doors are shut, slow down at all yellows and wait for the next signal to determine your speed, don't 100% the throttle from a station, brake smooth and realistically etc.. IMPOSSIBLE by leaps and bounds to ever be on time.

2. Throw all proper procedure out the door. You're just "running and gunning" the route. 100% throttle from a stand still, stupidly unsafe last minute full service braking, blowing through initial cautions at line sped, doors aren't even shut (but the game thinks they are).. And still. IMPOSSIBLE to be on time.


Maybe I'm spoiled by APH scenarios where they are tough, but completely within the realms of realism.. This DTG crap is for the birds.

[Chris Baker]

When i was writng real timetabled scenarios for SSS on the S&D i ended up doing away with using the game timetable alltogether . The game has a bug where the time shown on screen runs faster than the game engine. So the longer the scenario the bigger the difference gets. This is why you sometimes find your sat at a station even though your departure time has passed but the game won't let you leave.

The S&D route seems really bad for this too. I started using messages to tell the player what time he should leave and what time he should be at the next stop. i found i could keep to the real timetables this way. Plus i think its more realistic as it leaves it upto the player to keep time just like a real driver would.

Chris

[styckx]

Another thing I notice that causes it is the scenario writers aren't taking into account grades.. For instance.. If you route a trip from Glasgow to Carlisle. The scenario editor still thinks a Class 90 climbing that mountain w/ a rake of 10 coaches behind it can just accelerate (or even maintain) 110mph. Depending on the motive power and coaches behind you you're actually likely to not even hit mainline speeds during climbs, and or your speed decreases from the speed when you started the climb. There have been many times where I'm on time then hit a steep grade, watch my speed bleed off and in turn I'm now suddenly late for my arrival times.

Richard at APH (and a lot of the hobby scenario writers) are good at taking all things into account and it's very obvious he's run that same scenario multiple times to make sure his timetables are fairly achievable even when you're following "protocol".. I'm sure DTG testers still get the "We can't change the times at this stage of development" if they point these things out.

[Rockdoc2174]

Something else that annoys me is when the speeds are unrealistic, even if the associated timings are achievable. Take HAA wagons, for example. They have a maximum speed of 45mph yet many scenarios using them make you run at at least 60mph. Yes, there was a variant (HDA) that could run at that 60mph but the wagon modelled in-game couldn't.

Keith

[Carinthia]

When i was writng real timetabled scenarios for SSS on the S&D i ended up doing away with using the game timetable alltogether . The game has a bug where the time shown on screen runs faster than the game engine. So the longer the scenario the bigger the difference gets. This is why you sometimes find your sat at a station even though your departure time has passed but the game won't let you leave.

The S&D route seems really bad for this too. I started using messages to tell the player what time he should leave and what time he should be at the next stop. i found i could keep to the real timetables this way. Plus i think its more realistic as it leaves it upto the player to keep time just like a real driver would.

I am amazed you have any problems maintaining time to real schedules on the S&D, it is very easy to run early if you don't ease back. Agreed, the PSRs are not true to life but steam schedules were never aggressive. If you want realistic speed restrictions you could try my "revisited" version which corrects a lot of things like that:
http://carinthia.sftt.co.uk/routes-bt.php

I don't understand your issue over departure times. Agreed, the displayed clock and game clock do not stick together but what harm does it do? On a route as short as the S&D I don't see a variation of more than a minute. It wasn't at all unrealistic to leave a few minutes late in steam days - nobody worried about things like that in those days. You don't fail the scenario for it.

John

[Carinthia]

Something else that annoys me is when the speeds are unrealistic, even if the associated timings are achievable. Take HAA wagons, for example. They have a maximum speed of 45mph yet many scenarios using them make you run at at least 60mph. Yes, there was a variant (HDA) that could run at that 60mph but the wagon modelled in-game couldn't.

HAAs used to be 45mph loaded and 60mph empty in the 1970s - maybe that has changed since.

John

[Derek B]

So.. I'm sitting here playing some DTG written scenarios on newer routes...

Wasn't it forever thus?

Scenario writing is an art, and appreciation is in the eye of the beholder. If all you want to do is jump in, pull a Fisher-Price lever and spend the next 15 mins admiring your new toy from as many different angles as possible before you tire of it all and try, fruitlessly to crash it into the next available set of buffers before wandering off and buying the next game steam throws at your deficient attention span then DTG's scenarios fit the bill admirably. This is the same (majority) market segment that risible guff like the Halloween Express is aimed at. If, on the other hand, you want to recreate the journey of 1M14 on the morning of 21/08/1983, right down to that TSR south of Crawford and being held outside Carlisle for the late departing GSW passenger service then you're going to have to do it yourself, or hope that someone else does it for you.

DTG are to train simulation what Hornby are to model railways: entry level, course scale and mass market. You wont get scratch-built, fine-scale standards from them. Ever.

Derek

[rfletcher72]

This is the same (majority) market segment that risible guff like the Halloween Express is aimed at.

Not sure this applies to my daughter, who seems quite taken with the fliers displayed for this so far. If she gets to enjoy it when it comes out and they make a few bob out of it at the same time, it seems like a reasonable win-win.

DTG are to train simulation what Hornby are to model railways: entry level, course scale and mass market. You wont get scratch-built, fine-scale standards from them. Ever.

Derek

Then let DG get on with it then IMO, it seems to be working for them and probably us too. With model railways, there are many avenues available to those who seek more specialised stuff and the same applies to an extent with TS. There are a few established vendors on the scene who market items that DG couldn't hope to sell in the volumes required, to cater for those of us who are a bit more 'fussy'. And even dare I say through Steam via the partner programme, there are 'niche' items available too, such as the J50 and the 14xx (these are 'niche' IMO).

They sell the 'plastic' to the masses, and we then get to play with the 'anorak' stuff.

Regards,

[BigVern]

Interesting counterpoint to relate - attempting to set up a scenario on the West Highland Mallaig extension, with real timetable data culled from Scottish Railrover, but inputting the times against a Class 27 + 4 coaches TS2015 decided it couldn't keep up and had a red-out on the timings.

[Caliban]

Were the line speeds different whenever that was? ( 30odd years ago I'd imagine ). That route was properly surveyed, so as near as it's going to get I'd imagine.

The scheduler does take something out of the engine blueprint - I have a bunch of test blueprints with some of the power figures zeroed out, especially for straight electrics & steamers the driver physics doesn't actually use some entries - and it schedules trips between stations in days(!) but I can't remember what & I've never really been that interested in finding out.