Invisible loco

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Re: Invisible loco

Postby Rockdoc2174 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:51 pm

AndiS wrote:Keith, I never tried loading instructions with AI, but your example with the screen sounds like each of the wagons should get "load" instruction for the bulk loading facility there. Then the AI should stop for some time for each of the wagons in turn.

Like Pete said, automotive wagons are just any wagon plus any engine blueprint where you set maximum speed to a few mph and maximum force to something smallish to prevent rocket starts.


Would it be any easier if we had many single, self-propelled wagons? What I mean is that, with individual wagons you could have a very short marker under the loading point over each track so that the wagon was forced to stop at the correct position. Each wagon would have its own set of instructions so there wouldn't be any need to invent a way to have a sequence of loading for a short train.


If the iterative loading of an AI train does not work as planned, you would need to resort to the scripting scheme that Pete suggests. But aligning with each of the wagons would need extra care and altogether, it could become quite some project. And remember that AI does not receive the signals Pete mentioned. So the AI train would need a series of stop-at instructions, spaced by a wagon's length. But then, the "signal" could start the loading animation whenever it sees that a train stopped under the screen, without any sending of a signal. But the rise of the load level could not be implemented. This is a property of the wagon and if it does not receive messages, it will not cooperate.


That seems too complicated to be readily understood by non-technical scenario writers. I was hoping for a solution that was fairly simple to implement.

It's a pity that launching from a portal is unreliable. If it was easier to use you could have two portals underneath the screens on each line, with the first eliminating the unloaded wagon and the second launching a loaded one a short time afterwards.

[/quote]Regarding the co-existence of AI and player trains, you need to try each case. I have seen many cases where AI panicked and fell into 0.5 mph zombie crawl although there was really no reason, because there were sufficient signals between player and AI.

So if there is a rake of tracks where the player shunts, a nearby AI consist inching forward under the screen may or may not panic. It seems that they panic less if you approach them from the rear. What they hate is a player in the 6 or so blocks ahead of the AI engine, even if it has orders to reverse and never go where the player is. It may help to set the (final) destination of the consist under the screen to the end of that track. Then even the AI dispatcher should see that no one crosses the path of the AI train.[/quote]

Scenarios with a lot of AI can give very peculiar results. I tried to develop a long (~3 hours) scenario for Settle & Carlisle v7 where the player drove a 4F on a pick-up goods from Hellifield to Carlisle. I'd set up the AI in the scenario in the direction of travel so that I could check that the trains passed at the right spot. The first symptom that all was not well was about an hour in when after which approaching AI trains showed red lights instead of white. By the time I got to Appleby things were completely out of control. Trains would stay at their starting position long after their departure time, then vanish and appear where they should have been at speed. Thins got increasingly odd to the point where I binned the whole thing long before I got near Carlisle!

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Re: Invisible loco

Postby AndiS » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:15 pm

Rockdoc2174 wrote:
AndiS wrote:Keith, I never tried loading instructions with AI, but your example with the screen sounds like each of the wagons should get "load" instruction for the bulk loading facility there. Then the AI should stop for some time for each of the wagons in turn.

Like Pete said, automotive wagons are just any wagon plus any engine blueprint where you set maximum speed to a few mph and maximum force to something smallish to prevent rocket starts.


Would it be any easier if we had many single, self-propelled wagons? What I mean is that, with individual wagons you could have a very short marker under the loading point over each track so that the wagon was forced to stop at the correct position. Each wagon would have its own set of instructions so there wouldn't be any need to invent a way to have a sequence of loading for a short train.

That would mean many AI trains in the same block. You would need invisible block signals (spaced at wagon length) between them and then they would not move together as if coupled but wait for each other to "clear the block".

Rockdoc2174 wrote:Scenarios with a lot of AI can give very peculiar results. I tried to develop a long (~3 hours) scenario for Settle & Carlisle v7 where the player drove a 4F on a pick-up goods from Hellifield to Carlisle. I'd set up the AI in the scenario in the direction of travel so that I could check that the trains passed at the right spot. The first symptom that all was not well was about an hour in when after which approaching AI trains showed red lights instead of white. By the time I got to Appleby things were completely out of control. Trains would stay at their starting position long after their departure time, then vanish and appear where they should have been at speed. Thins got increasingly odd to the point where I binned the whole thing long before I got near Carlisle!

Glad to hear this, so to say. :roll: I always had this impression that once you go beyond simple demonstrators, AI bugs just become unmanageable. On a small scale, I had some success. But come some complexity and I lost track of what was the first cause to all the nonsense I saw. I just gave up earlier than you.

This is my position in this time of waiting :- shiny graphics are nice to have and I sure could use better terrain and plants. But AI that just works and signals that don't need to corroborate theories of what the train will do, these are the things that would win me over.
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Re: Invisible loco

Postby Rockdoc2174 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:32 pm

AndiS wrote:That would mean many AI trains in the same block. You would need invisible block signals (spaced at wagon length) between them and then they would not move together as if coupled but wait for each other to "clear the block".


Yes but the more I think about it the more I suspect that would be more realistic. I don't know for sure but I'd bet that the wagon movements were guided by shunters with braking poles to keep them under control, which would mean a few wagons at a time at most. I never heard of the NCB having retarders on their sidings and, to be honest, I'd be amazed if they had. Colliery sidings were probably the worst-maintained in the world and relatively delicate kit with lots of moving parts wouldn't stand a chance.

Glad to hear this, so to say. :roll: I always had this impression that once you go beyond simple demonstrators, AI bugs just become unmanageable. On a small scale, I had some success. But come some complexity and I lost track of what was the first cause to all the nonsense I saw. I just gave up earlier than you.


LOL! I always tend to overdo AI traffic or I get bored.

This is my position in this time of waiting :- shiny graphics are nice to have and I sure could use better terrain and plants. But AI that just works and signals that don't need to corroborate theories of what the train will do, these are the things that would win me over.


Having had my first extensive involvement with signals I couldn't agree more. I had problems with distants which were cured with help from the community but they reappeared later and I haven't the faintest idea what I did to break them again. Better terrain would be wonderful - so long as it isn't necessary to move each mesh node individually to get anywhere in detail. When I did the opencast site for the Friargate Line it nearly broke me. I couldn't count the number of nodes I had to move so even the idea of having to manipulate, say a 1m mesh (64 times as many nodes! Eek!!) means I need a long lie down in a dark room! :-)

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Re: Invisible loco

Postby AndiS » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:42 pm

Rockdoc2174 wrote:
AndiS wrote:That would mean many AI trains in the same block. You would need invisible block signals (spaced at wagon length) between them and then they would not move together as if coupled but wait for each other to "clear the block".


Yes but the more I think about it the more I suspect that would be more realistic. I don't know for sure but I'd bet that the wagon movements were guided by shunters with braking poles to keep them under control, which would mean a few wagons at a time at most.

Right, but then you need a man to walk besides the wagon. Hard to do in RW. But someone standing besides the wagon would be easy (child object of the wagon).

Better terrain would be wonderful - so long as it isn't necessary to move each mesh node individually to get anywhere in detail. When I did the opencast site for the Friargate Line it nearly broke me. I couldn't count the number of nodes I had to move so even the idea of having to manipulate, say a 1m mesh (64 times as many nodes! Eek!!) means I need a long lie down in a dark room! :-)

Lying down in a dark room is a healthy thing all of us should do more often. Most jobs call for that.

Regarding the opencast site, I hope to get RW DEM into Blender this weekend. Once there, you (I) have a ton of options to modify the mesh. People sculpt the most wonderful artwork using this software. If DTG don't loose the plot, they provide simple means to get any mesh in and out of TSW, terrain not excluded.
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