Beware of OS map dates!

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Beware of OS map dates!

Postby Rockdoc2174 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:52 am

I suppose most of us use OS maps when developing routes, especially if they're historic ones, like The Friargate Line, that were closed and lifted many years ago. I've trusted them to be realistic with dates until recently but a couple of anachronisms made me start to wonder whether that was altogether wise. A colliery that was closed and demolished by the given date is shown as open and operating on one map but the same spot from a map with similar date at a different scale showed this area after closure. Ooo-err, Missus!

I went to Derby Local Studies Library last Saturday and found a few interesting snippets but didn't have time to check their map collection so I made a return visit yesterday. They didn't have many large-scale maps but a librarian brought me one that was labelled as 1947 and showed the course of the line through Derby from Chester Green, on the north-eastern outskirts, to just before Friargate station. As I traced the course of the line I spotted that it was tagged as "GNR Derbyshire and Staffordshire Extension", which made me look at the Midland lines and I found they were tagged "Midland Railway North Midland Line". Tilt!! A 1947 map with pre-Grouping IDs? An older librarian showed me that the legend at the bottom of the map stated it was the result of a 1912 survey and had been issued in 1914, which made sense. Then she pointed to another legend, at the top this time, recording that this was a 1947 revision and said that the OS would have compared a later survey with earlier ones and only altered what had to be altered, leaving anything else alone.

I suppose the lesson to draw from this is that the map will be more or less correct for the nominal date but that there will be occasional anachronisms we need to be aware of. On the other hand there's always the maxim that Hertsbob told me "You're doing the research so you know what's right or wrong. How many players will know what you know?"

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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby AndiS » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:15 am

A friend once said: "The only thing those scientists know is what the do not know - and knowing that makes them so proud."

So a proper route, following scientific principles, would state "The creators do not claim to know that the colliery was open in 19xx. However, they saw a map [insert precise description of map] that showed it as closed in 19yy and another that showed it as open in 19zz. To promote interesting game play, they opted for the 19zz state."

With mines changing half of their structures every decade you will never end up with a complete documentation.

Anyway, going to the local library gives you some headway to anyone who believes to know better.

Regarding the labelling of routes, the explanation sounds good enough for me. What matters more for us is: When was the building repainted (after it changed hands=operators)? OS did not document that, but for the player, it is more important than the change in legal bodies. Again, all we have is sparse photos from before and after the repainting.

And if you come up with perfect documentation for year X showing half the buildings on the route in old colours and the other half in those of the new company, people will say you are nuts and it looks stupid. But if you show them all in the same colours, they will say "boring" or "oversimplification" and bring up one of the photos that you know anyway, or another one. Ebay is a constant source of information for anyone prepare to spend all his life clicking and saving, and spending some money to get originals.
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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby Rockdoc2174 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:43 am

All true, Andi. It may sound daft to say that knowing what you don't know is important but it is (guess who worked in a university for a few years!) My PhD supervisor called research "pushing back the boundaries of ignorance", which amounts to largely the same thing. The only certainty in science and engineering is that we don't know it all. Much the same could be said about researching pretty much anything else, too.

I'm fairly confident that Friargate was in the early LNER, brown-and-stone colour-scheme at nationalisation and that it went straight to LMR maroon and cream sometime between 1954 and 1958 - I've seen both dates. Breadsall was in the later LNER Brunswick green-and-stone scheme when it closed in 1953 but not repainting that when it was being used by only a couple of people a day at the end makes perfect sense. All the other stations between Derby and the GCR closed in 1964, when the whole line closed to passenger traffic. Daybrook and Gedling, on the Back Line, closed in 1960 when Mapperley tunnel became too unstable, but Daybrook had only been used for workmen's trains for a very long time so that never being repainted wasn't a great surprise, especially as colour photos show the paintwork was in excellent condition. I haven't found a colour photo of Gedling but I doubt whether that was repainted for the same reason. Awsworth, Kimberley and Basford North were all painted in LMR colours so you'd expect West Hallam to follow suit, wouldn't you? Apparently not, because a post-closure colour photo shows green and cream window frames.

There's a part of me that says "So what? Who'll know?" but there's another that replies "I will!" I'm between a rock and a hard place in an argument with myself! Whoops! Here come the men with that nice white jacket that buttons up the back....... :-)

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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby AndiS » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:17 pm

Rockdoc2174 wrote:Here come the men with that nice white jacket that buttons up the back....... :-)

That's the cool thing about pseudonyms in forums. Without the aid of some intelligence service, these men will not get us.

"Pushing back the boundaries of ignorance" is exactly what we do here all the time. I was absolutely ignorant about mines at all until I followed the thread on Bob's Netherfield route. And now I analyse the mess there.
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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby BigVern » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:16 am

I find Sabre Maps covers a good range of time periods on OS mapping, they've also recently added the turn of the century 6" maps which reveals quite a few routes not even evident as "Cse of Old Rly" on newer maps - such as the Shipston to Stratford Tramway and the line to Westward Ho! Of limited use when your current project(s) are in the east of Russia (!) but a fascinating site nonetheless.
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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby hertsbob » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:02 pm

Rockdoc2174 wrote:I'm between a rock and a hard place in an argument with myself!

:roll:
;)

Here's another one for you: If you can't find the information you're looking for make it up and move on. :)

And another: If you've made it up and moved on then inevitably the information you were after will surface immediately the route has been released, but never beforehand. Happens all the time! :evil:

It's also interesting that there's a modern parallel with Keith's maps with Google Earth vs. Street View vs. Bing Maps Overhead vs. Bing Maps Bird's-eye View. It's not at all uncommon for them to disagree with each other about a particular area. But one example, there was much hilarity in the office during the Bedpan build as the new layout around the yards at Bedford was literally only present in one of the Bing Bird's-eye views, and literally only appeared during the evening I laid the track. Nobody was able to view it again for weeks afterwards. :?

I'll have to check out Sabre maps again. Sounds like there might be quite a lot more available now than there was when I last looked. Thanks, Vern!

Cheers

Bob
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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby BigVern » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:04 am

As we're discussing maps, following might also be of interest:

Open Topo Map - https://opentopomap.org/#map=5/49.000/10.000

Essentially Open Street Map but in the style of OS/topographic map.

Open Street Map (DE) - https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html

German variant on OSM but has the location names in all countries shown using Roman text, which makes it easier navigating locations in Russia or especially where Chinese or Japanese characters are used.
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Re: Beware of OS map dates!

Postby hertsbob » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:54 pm

The Open Topo site is particularly interesting! Really appreciate the link. Thanks!! :D
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