Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby DominusEdwardius » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:39 am

It's a bit late and I'm up early but the equation Chris suggested for the TE isn't 100% accurate. The game does something weird with the curves however I'm not entirely sure what, I don't think its simply multiplication, but at the same time I don't think it is the highest of the two curves either. It is hard to explain but I remember trying to match the ingame te value with a calculated one using an equation like chris suggested but no matter I tried what I did I could never get them to match. I may have another go at some point but suffice it to say it isn't exactly that equation but it isn't far off that :?

On the subject of boiler first or cylinders first I'd say boiler. It is how I setup the G2 and it is by far the more sensible approach. If you work around the cylinders first you keep moving the goal posts if you make steaming better or worse.

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:36 am

Hi guys, not a very detailed response, as my brain hurts because of lua stuff but:

Igel: Handbuch des Dampflokomotivbaues is present in my uni library. They won't let me take it home though. I'll have a look one of these days, and see what I can get from it. I don't mind a bit of a black box, empirical approach, after all we don't really know what's going on inside of TS anyway. It'll be a question of curve fitting and coming up with something that is believable. Unless I can find any testing results for the locomotive in question.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:51 am

Great to see they got Igel. It is said to be a standard text book, but that is said about too many books for one's poor little brain.

Regarding how they designed an engine, I would even say they did it 'train load first'. They wanted to take some train of a certain (maximum) weight along a given route at some desired speed. Their available engines were not good enough, so the went to the candy shop and said "give me an engine that does this".

Specific resistance in old German sources is given as kg of resistance force per ton of train weight. The nice thing about this is that gradient in permille directly maps to this. It takes 1 kg = 9.81 N to take 1 ton up a 1 permille (1 in 1000) grade.

Rolling friction was assumed at 2.4 to 3.

Air drag was any of a zillion factors times square of speed.

Resistance in curves was often expressed as 650 / (radius - 55). Of course, such equations are just approximations of series of measurements.

The key is that given the desired speed, the representative up gradient and the minimum radius, you get a factor that you multiply to any train load, obtaining the TE in kg (force) that is required.

The required power in PS is force * speed / 270.

Then they had all sorts of ballpark figures describing how much coal and steam you need per PS. E.g., you need 10 to 14 kg steam for 1 PS and 1 hour. The lower figure is for express engines, the higher for mountain engines, which obviously were expected to work under suboptimal conditions.

The same source say you need 2 to 2.4 kg coal.

Another guy found that you need 10 kg steam at up to 50 km/h, but 12,6 kg at 90 km/h. This clearly contradicts the first source, though it is quoted on two succeeding pages of the same book (Igel).

This second source (quoted from Organ für den Fortschritt des Eisenbahnwesens, 1894) says you need 1,25 kg coal for one PS & hour. That is for single expansion, for a compound it is just 1.05; and for speed up to 50 km/h.

The difference in coal consumption will be caused by differences in coal quality and in efficiency in burning it.


You could also do the computation in SI units.

1 PS = 735 W = 735 J/s
1 PS for 1 hour = 2646 kJ
The quoted coal had 7000 kCal/kg (sometimes 7500). This is about 30,000 kJ/kg.
That means that without losses, you need 0.09 kg coal to produce 1 PS.

Wikipedia says that Watt's engines had an efficiency of 3%. Their general efficiency is described as 8-10 %. There you go, ballpark figures again.

At an efficiency of 9 %, we need to fire 1 kg coal for each PS the engine performs. This is near the lowest rating in the above sources.


You could even cut out the German PS stuff and go from TE in N directly to coal in kg.
1 J = 1 Nm, and the metres result from the chosen speed.

To turn the above formula that uses kg (force) and km/h to arrive at PS, into SI units, you get:

TE in kg * 9,81 gives TE in N.
Speed in km/h / 3,6 gives speed in m/s.
9.81 / 3,6 / 735 = 1 / 270 which is the magic constant quotient above.


In case you still want more figures, get yourself some copies of Organ für den Fortschritt des Eisenbahnwesens:

Part 7 from 1913 on archive.org talks about engine performance, based on questionnaires sent out to member organisations. This one is pretty focussed in comparison with older ones. I.e., it is topics-based and not new-based.

Editions 1864 to 1876 are available online from the Bavarian state library.
Each gives the latest details on all parts of railways from engines and station layout to supervision of grease consumption. First hand information from all over the world, which means you need a lot of time to find your way back into reality once you start on this drug.

If you are willing to install Google Play's e-reader, you can see issues 4-6, dated 1849, here. But for the very early time, you can get a ton of books on archive.org. It does not matter much that there is little mention of continental Europe as that mostly copied England and the US anyway.

(Edit: fix in curve resistance formula)
Last edited by AndiS on Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby DominusEdwardius » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:33 pm

I found this interesting paper while browsing the internet a while back and it should be useful as its basically a literature review about this topic:
http://users.fini.net/~bersano/english- ... l%20-O.pdf
( if you can get your head round it )

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:52 pm

wow such academics much graphs very references.

In all seriousness, you guys have no idea how overwhelmed with information I am at this point :oops: . Should we continue this discussion in a seperate topic, as to increase the chance that others may find it one day? I'm sure I'm not the only one dabbling about with this.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby DominusEdwardius » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:09 pm

perhaps it is best we do move it, this topic is becoming less about ancient carriages and more about steam locomotive front end design :D
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:18 pm

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:47 pm

More WIP shots. And more strange units.

Image
"Greatest speed 90 k.m. in the hour, or 1500 meters in the minute." There's no speedometer if you're wondering.

Image
Really, really happy about this. Great sense of achievement here. I've also been busy scripting some semi-advanced (don't expect any just trains or vR level, just a bit extra), including:

  • Steam chest simulation, by doing a sort of euler-style differential simulation. I've assumed that BoilerPressure x Regulator = SteamChestPressure. The outflow of steam, and thus negative change in steam chest pressure is a function of cutoff, speed and steam chest pressure. The inflow is a function of virtual regulator setting and pressure differential over the regulator valve.
  • The reverser lock actually works. When you release the lock, and it can't fall home in a notch, the reverser will slowly wobble to full cutoff, and fall into the next-heighest notch.
  • Animated a coalbed, and the smoke colour changes with firemass. I don't suppose I can query the sim for things like fire temperature or anything, so at this point, it's light-grey smoke = ideal fire mass.
  • Very much WIP, but I've done wheelslip :D. There's one small issue: this loco is - if my model makes any sense and it seems it does - very sure footed.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby cjbarnes5294 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:26 pm

Wow, that's a very impressive feature list, especially as it is your first TS loco and you haven't had a year or 2 of practice to call upon to help you! :shock:

TrabantDeLuxe wrote:Very much WIP, but I've done wheelslip :D. There's one small issue: this loco is - if my model makes any sense and it seems it does - very sure footed.


If you are confident that your maths and adhesion algorithm are both correct, then it could maybe be your coefficient of friction is too high? Engineering Toolbox states that a coefficient of friction for a dry, clean steel on steel contact could range between 0.5-0.8, but both the railhead and the tires of the wheels are likely to be contaminated, particularly with fluids such as moisture and oil, so a lower figure would be more realistic for railway simulation applications in my opinion. I would go for 0.3 for dry conditions.

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:10 am

Edit of edit of edit: Most of what I've said here is nonsense :oops: . I might do a proper write up once, if people ask.

Hi,

Did I mention that the sight glass water bobs up and down with speed, acceleration and gradient? I've done quite a bit of matlab programming before this, so programming itself is nothing new. It's more that testing costs a heck of a lot of time, because basically I don't know of any way of displaying variables on screen. I usually turn on or off the loco lights to show whether or not stuff works.

Anyway, short write up on the wheelslip. Let's start with the basic loco stats: Weight 49 000 kg, of which I've assumed (couldn't find hard data) a .62 fraction is weight on drivers. This seems to compare at the low-end range of comparable locos, which vary between .60 and .68. Of course, I'm still looking for data. My model for instanteaneous tractive force, applied at the wheel-rail interface, is:

Image
Edit, fixed the equation here. s is the stroke, D is the driver diameter.

Where Fcyl,max is the force applied to a single piston. As a quick approximation, we add the sum of |cosine| and |sine| of wheel rotation theta together, multiply them with the piston force and get a graph much like you find in some older textbooks. The entire v and vmax business scales the oscillation of the graph with speed, as a quick and dirty way of dealing with intertial effects. I should investigate this a bit more. Knowing where the wheels are in their rotation, we can get this value. I then multiply it with GetTractiveEffort - which seems to return a normalised version of tractive effort according to sim logic.

Image

Then we do the adhesion side of things. I've found over at the 5at.co.uk a graph, based on research conducted by Koffmann, of adhesion vs speed. It drops with speed. So in comes a curve fitting site, and I've got a normalised version of this graph which is then multiplied with a starting tractive effort. To finally answer the question, the starting tractive effort is, for now, taken as 0.3 dry, 0.2 wet, and 0.05 contaminated. Finally we do a unit check, and if (instanteneous TE)/(weight on drivers x adhesion) > 1.0, we've got a slip.

Because of the pulsing nature of TE at low speed, at around 0.25 adhesion you get the hop-and-skip slip. I've not looked into the post-slip dynamic friction, so it's quite easy to restore traction again by simply shutting steam.
Last edited by TrabantDeLuxe on Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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