Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

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Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:17 am

Hi all,

I know I have been spamming these over the interwebs for a while now, but I'd like some feedback for the pros about what I've been up to. So here it goes, the complete deLuxe set of carriages up to this point. I'm mainly looking for critiques on the way they look, full blueprinting still has to be done.

A bit of history: all of these carriages were built for the dutch State Railways (SS). Despite the name this was a fully private company, the lines they operated on however, were built on state initiative. The full name would be something along the lines of 'Society for the Explotation of State Railways'. Starting in 1921 the major companies in the Netherlands started to operate under a single name, 'Nederlandsche Spoorwegen' (which, incidentally, is plural). The constituent companies were formally merged in 1937. NS liveries haven't been done (yet) as they are rather boring.


Image
SS DIII No. 218 - 351, 360 - 370
This is what in UK parlance you'd call a guards' van I guess. It's got a cozy compartment for him to sit and watch the locomotive (up to the 1930's passenger carriages were not allowed directly behind the engine) and do guardy things. Luggage could also be taken aboard. Picture of the real thing, prior the installation of Pintsch lighting.

Image
SS LIII No. 20 - 64
L for Lettres, because french is fancy and all that. I've come across the nickname Tea Cosy for these carriages. I've actually managed to track down an interior picture of these in a book somewhere, so I feel pretty confident the interior makes sense. Can't say that for the other carriages. Heralds still have to be added next to the door. These carriages have been built in several batches from 1891 to 1905.

Image
SS A4c No. A101 - A128
First class carriages built in 1900 - 1903. Built based on rather poor line drawings, however, I managed to track down a couple of detailed pictures of the B6c below which is basically it's second class twin. Every compartment has got its own toilet in these things. The interior is complete guesswork.

Image
SS B6c No. B201 - B241
Second class carriages, built to accompany the A4c series in 1900 - 1903. This is a slightly earlier version compared to the A4c, as the inset panelling was removed around 1910.

Image
SS C7 No. C400 - C497
I accidentally made a sauna. Where teak often denotes a certain luxury, this isn't remotely that. The SS ordered these in 1891/1892, for express trains. Wooden benches, no toilets, and no practically no windows. A set-up the SS would be maintaining until 1901 with the introduction of the C8c (I believe some the earliest IIIrd class carriages had windows as well). In 1915 these carriages were rebuilt to include the luxury of windows.

Image
SS C8c No. C651 - C760
Built in two batches, in 1901 and 1910, these were third class carriages featuring the luxury of wooden benches, windows to look out from, and for the first time a toilet (retirade). Again a teak panelled sauna. I need to do some cleanup on the textures of this one. SS C723 has been preserved, quite a rarity for rolling stock this age.

Technical bits
Right, so I'd like to give some info on the 3D aspects of these carriages. The top LOD has around 20 000 to 25 000 polys (double that for tri counts). The lowest LOD has around 1000 tris. I've made use of common components for the underframes, using:
  • Diffuse 2048 x 2048
  • Specular 2048 x 2048
  • Normals 2048 x 2048
Am I correct in thinking that these textures are loaded once for multiple carriages?

Each carriage has three large materials of it's own. One 2048 x 2048 for the sides and some details I'd like to give environmental reflections, one 1024 x 2048 for the roof and other details, and a 1024 x 1024 for the interior. All external textures have spec and normals applied. The interior is just a tex. Apart from these there are a few smaller textures for decals, windows, and numbering. How's this for texture usage nowadays?

Critiques are welcomed.

Cheers,
-deLuxe.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby cjbarnes5294 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:31 pm

Bloody hell, they look superb, fantastic work! I can't really fault them (not that I would want to anyway) as they genuinely look like works of art to me. The only thing I might consider is toning down the axle boxes and buffer stems that are currently quite bright white, unless they're supposed to be painted white? If they're just polished metal, I would recommend adding a couple of metal texture layers derived from photos (CGTextures has loads) and set the layers to overlay, then adjust the opacity.

TrabantDeLuxe wrote:Technical bits
Right, so I'd like to give some info on the 3D aspects of these carriages. The top LOD has around 20 000 to 25 000 polys (double that for tri counts). The lowest LOD has around 1000 tris. I've made use of common components for the underframes, using:
  • Diffuse 2048 x 2048
  • Specular 2048 x 2048
  • Normals 2048 x 2048
Am I correct in thinking that these textures are loaded once for multiple carriages?


That is also my understanding of how the textures are loaded. If you wanted to be sure, you might be able to use Process Monitor to determine whether this is correct or not, but there are a fair few members here with a sound knowledge of how the game uses memory in terms of the artwork whom might provide some good advice - sadly I'm not one of them!

TrabantDeLuxe wrote:Each carriage has three large materials of it's own. One 2048 x 2048 for the sides and some details I'd like to give environmental reflections, one 1024 x 2048 for the roof and other details, and a 1024 x 1024 for the interior. All external textures have spec and normals applied. The interior is just a tex. Apart from these there are a few smaller textures for decals, windows, and numbering. How's this for texture usage nowadays.


Again, I'm not an expert on this field unfortunately, but having worked with a fair number of models built by different modellers, I would suggest that the way you have set it up is quite normal and memory efficient.

Kind regards,
Chris
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:47 pm

Hi Chris,

It's good to know that the resources are about the same as other peoples models.

I can't really fault them (not that I would want to anyway) as they genuinely look like works of art to me.


Constructive critisism is the desire here. I've often seen, especially in freeware, a lack of constructive critiques for fear of coming over as snobbish and demanding. In my humble opinion, friendly critiques are a good way of improving asset creation, and therefore benefit us all.

The only thing I might consider is toning down the axle boxes and buffer stems that are currently quite bright white, unless they're supposed to be painted white? If they're just polished metal, I would recommend adding a couple of metal texture layers derived from photos (CGTextures has loads) and set the layers to overlay, then adjust the opacity.


The axle boxes and buffer stems are painted white. I've been considering toning them down, although in photographs the axleboxes always really stand out. Keep in mind though, most photographs are builders photographs and as such the carriages are completely new and clean.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:03 pm

White axle boxes are cool. The remind us of a time when labour was cheaper than grease. Nb. that grease was pretty expensive then. So cleaning them was not costly, but wasting grease by filling in so much that it runs out when it gets warm or squeezed about was. On the white paint, that was quickly found out and the wasteful greaser fined. At least that is my theory on white axle boxes.

The bright barrels under the 1st and 2nd coaches, would that be vacuum reservoirs or even cylinders? They are there under the other vehicles, too, but painted black there. Can't remember ever seeing them so big. But then again, most companies will paint them black so you don't note them normally.

I, too, can't fault the coach, and I can fault most things, far less than I can make things. That said, whenever I read about 2048 textures, I wonder whether having two UV maps and using two different layers of texture would be an option. One contains the fine details and the other the overall colour with the latter ensuring interesting, non-repetitive look from a distance while the former ensures crisp details. I read clever instructions for it many years ago and I saw lots of work coming my way when I can hardly do a single unwrap. So I keep asking myself how many of those who create stuff like these coaches use the trick.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby DominusEdwardius » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 am

Wow those look stellar, one comment I would have is apart form the buffer stems already mentioned would be the tires themselves, generally speaking tires/flanges don't remain shiny and polished after being freshly turned for very long ( at which point they look like highly polished metallic mirrors almost ) and generally over time become dull and occasionally even rusty like in these photos
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3814/1318 ... 169c_o.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7064/1318 ... 47b2_o.jpg
probably not the best examples but it is what i had to hand
regards
Edward
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:23 am

Hi Edward and Andy,

Typing this from my phone, as bad stuff happened Im afraid. More on that later.

Andy, the white socks are indeed one of these nice quirky features. Youre absolutely riggt that manpower was cheap in those days. On the grease being expensive, I've read about the Rhenish railway (trans.?) using rapeseed oil for lubrication. When the company went bankrupt around 1890 the other companies werent as keen on obtaining their rolling stock...

The large cylinders under the carriages, between the axles, are not vacuum cylinders. In fact, these carriages use either the Westinghouse or Knorr-Kunze systems. The large cylinders are gas tanks for lighting purposes. Several sources tell me they should be light gray; photographs show both light and dark gas tanks.

Edward: Thanks. The wheels never looked quit right to me.

Now for the bad news: my hard drive has crashed and I havent got much in the sense of a back up. Data recovery is financially out of the question (irony: yesterday i was looking for an external hdd should this happen. The lord hates me it seems.). There is still a slight chance I might be able to salvage something if the defect with the drive is what I think it is. Otherwise, ive gained valuable experience, information, and workflow practice to start again and correct some issues. As a great compatriot who left us this week told us: there is an advantage in each diaadvantage.

Cheers,

deLuxe.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:01 pm

Fingers crossed for your harddisk!!!

Good to hear that those were gas tanks. I never saw reservoirs so large, but was not entirely sure such would not exist in the early days when they could not keep any decent pressure (vacuum or otherwise).

Lubricants are an aspect of railway development that is overlooked by most. Yet just like it was a long way from iron bars just a yard long to rails that required 8-wheelers for transportation it was a long way from the grease they used on horse-drawn vehicles of all sorts to stuff that suits 40 mph, not to mention 100 mph. Mineral oil was not available or not affordable for many decades in railway history.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby JamesLit » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:43 pm

Those look absolutely gorgeous!

You shall definitely have to make an equally delectable steam loco to go with them, or I shall have words with customer service! :D

I shall be very disappointed if you don't manage to get the data back, that'd be as real shame. Fingers crossed, let us know. At least you have gained a lot from it.
Last edited by JamesLit on Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby cjbarnes5294 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:51 pm

TrabantDeLuxe wrote:Now for the bad news: my hard drive has crashed and I havent got much in the sense of a back up. Data recovery is financially out of the question (irony: yesterday i was looking for an external hdd should this happen. The lord hates me it seems.). There is still a slight chance I might be able to salvage something if the defect with the drive is what I think it is. Otherwise, ive gained valuable experience, information, and workflow practice to start again and correct some issues. As a great compatriot who left us this week told us: there is an advantage in each diaadvantage.


There is Sod's Law, and then there is Sod's Law. :( I really hope that you haven't lost them, so best of luck recovering what you can! Your positive attitude, should you have lost them, is quite inspiring as I think I would personally feel too disheartened if it happened to me. :)

Kind regards,
Chris
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:04 pm

Right, I've dug out my old gaming PC from the dust (some 2-core 2Ghz, 4GB RAM and a marvellous GTX 275) and it even works after all these years! Hopefully I'll manage to get the right screwdriver tomorrow and do HDD surgery. Fingers crossed :P . Thanks for the encouraging words, and let this be a bit of a lesson for me ;).

@James: Don't push me ;). I've been considering doing a steam engine (SS 326 makes a fine prototype), but I can't stand the default way a steam loco handles and I don't really know all the scripting (would like at least decent air brakes and a steam chest), so don't count on it. However, I've heard this is a bit of a community where I might get some guidance for such things ;). Getting sounds for it would be another issue.

I'll keep you guys posted.
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