Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby cjbarnes5294 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:22 pm

Just a quick post before I go for my dinner, to confirm that the MaxForce value should be in Kilo-Pound-Force and that it is important to set this value realistically. The nominal tractive effort of British steam locomotives is normally quoted in Ibf so that can be quite useful, although I agree that it would be nice if the simulation blueprints units were consistent and standardised across the board. MaxPower, in horse power, is the one you needn't be so worried about for the steam loco simulation - I'm told it drives the AI but I wouldn't like to say with any certainty as I've never put it to the test.

The tractive effort of the steam loco simulation is calculated more or less along these lines:

Tractive Effort = MaxForce * Regulator (0-1) * (Boiler Pressure/Max Boiler Pressure) * SpeedVsTractiveEffort CSV (a value of 0-1) * CutoffVsTractiveEffort (also a value of 0-1)

Unfortunately there isn't a script function that allows you to directly modify the tractive effort of a steam loco, hence:

TrabantDeLuxe wrote:Custom wheelslip is, on the loco's that I have that feature it, seemingly done by calculating when slip should occur, and then slamming the regulator at 0%, so that no tractive effort is applied. Lua wheel animations do the rest. I'm really tempted at having a go at this...


Is spot on the mark, and hopefully it's clear why from the above equation. SetPowerProportion is available to diesel electrics so that you can modify the tractive effort using the script for those, but unfortunately that one is quite hopeless as it stretches the tractive effort curve in the x-axis and does something in the y-axis as well instead of being a straightforward multiplier - the diesel electric RPM vs power curve is a complex polynomial curve and I suspect that the function is altering the polynomial equation in a way the person who implemented it didn't expect. A bit like doing y = sin300x to try and stretch in the y-axis by x300, when of course you would get a shrink in the x-axis by a factor of 1/300...

Kind regards,
Chris
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:48 pm

AI motion accelerated at MaxForce converted to N, divided by train mass converted to kg.

When it reaches line speed (interpreted as mph even if unit is kph) times performance (which defaults to 0.75), it retains this speed.

Braking is done at "Max Force Percent of Vehicle Weight" which is given in m/s². This is computed as average weighted by vehicle mass, i.e., quite correctly. Still, as for acceleration, AI "maxes out".

So I see no room for MaxPower in AI. But I must admit that I cannot remember testing AI running uphill. I also do not remember observing downhill brake performance in AI. I only remember that wagons accelerated like they should when you uncoupled them while pushing downhill, but if they came to a halt, the froze there, obviously stopping the physics simulation.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby DominusEdwardius » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:29 pm

So basically, max power does absolutely nothing as you can set it to 0 and it will not affect the player loco one bit! I remember testing that much yonks back :D Max force is definitely used on the player loco. Whatever you do never try to find logic in the games physics, it has none and in a few cases actually defies the laws of physics. Units wise it doesn't bother me so much, practically all the steam simulation is in imperial which is what most documentation on UK locos is in so that is fine. On the other hand the diesel simulation blueprint drivers me absolutely barmy as it can't make up its mind whether it wants to be imperial or metric (and it isn't helped by hope BAD the simulation of diesels is).

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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:54 am

Actually, I found it quite exciting to trace the logic behind this. The logic behind the design, not the logic behind the real thing, mind you. For MSTS, I performed many series of experiments to uncover the connection between the parameters. Natural science methods to explore an IT artefact -- ought to have bought me some degree in interdisciplinary studies, but went unpublished.

KRS was harder to explore as it did not let you set the initial condition in rich detail. MSTS had some funny functions that were cooked up to make things less simplistic. KRS replaced some of them by CSV curves which was great. But with the fixed initial values, I could not get behind the rest.

However, the big difference was in psychology. With MSTS, you had dead software with some mystic underground documentation and all that was there had been put together by a community of madmen who resurrected the software. With KRS, the producer was still around and telling you it was a great product to be developed further. So there was little point in finding out stuff if those who supposedly know could publish the same thing any day now.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:26 pm

Thanks everyone for the insightful discussions. Glad I've signed up here. The development cycle I've chosed is to give the engine an überboiler, concentrating on tractive effort first. My self-imposed benchmark is that the loco should be able to pull a 300 ton train (about 15 six-wheelers) at 60 mph comfortably. From Chris' post we have:

Tractive Effort = MaxForce * Regulator (0-1) * (Boiler Pressure/Max Boiler Pressure) * SpeedVsTractiveEffort CSV (a value of 0-1) * CutoffVsTractiveEffort (also a value of 0-1)


Which sounds decent. The MaxForce setting at this point is 12 klbf, slightly higher then what sources suggest - but more in line with calculations I have done using the age old formula. At this point, I have the Cutoff_vs_TE as follows:

Image

A small percentage of TE is applied in mid-gear, reflecting the fact that Stephenson's has no true mid gear position. This also has the effect of making the loco awkward to drive which I like. The Speed_VS_TE looks like this:

Image

The devdocs suggest a linear relationship dropping to about 30% at 95 MPH. I found that this really capped the maximum speed, and went for higher values. I'm not really sure what would cause TE to drop with speed, that is not covered by the fact that you notch up to prevent back pressure and high steam consumption. These are covered in the Cutoff_VS_TE file anyway.

At this point acceleration reduces to a creep out at about 50 mph, so I might just increase the Speed_VS_TE graph again.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:13 pm

I have read two different claims about these curves, and I never had the patience or time to play with these things.
Theory 1: All these curves are multiplied just like you say. Sounds extremely sensible to me, which sounds like a reason for this not to be true.
Theory 2: The end result for TE is the maximum of all the curves (multiplied by MaxForce, of course). So these curves would cap each other.

I would make the second one (TE over speed) a horizontal line at 1, to eliminate its effect, irrespective of which of the two theories is right.

One thing to consider: Shonky code may consider the value be zero beyond 90 mph if you draw the graph up to 90 mph. So I would always draw it to 160 mph or whatever, with a horizontal section filling the unreasonable range.

I agree that the falloff of the TE at speed is due to the fill grade going down, so this is already covered.

However, the backpressure issue may well be worse at higher speed (though that is a bit of speculation on my side) as pumping out the steam at high speed (that is, high piston speed) may see more resistance (akin to air drag, whatever you call that in the case of the ejector/nozzle through which the steam passes into the chimney). But I don't have any serious source at hand and the effect may well be small.

There are also some mechanical issues at high speed with all the kinetic energy of the parts moving to and fro which might lead to an increase of the internal resistance of the gear. Just another speculation.

Both speculations together would motivate me to make the TE over speed some 0.9 at maximum speed (and horizontal from there to practical infinity). But first, I would try with 1.0 for all speed ratings.

The speed cap should only happen because of excessive steam consumption at high speed (plus, to a lesser degree, increased air drag). And you can't maintain it for long as you need an optimal firebed and that will vane quickly and having the firebox door open adds cold air to what goes through the tubes. It is things like that that should impose the limit.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby cjbarnes5294 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:17 pm

The reason you lose tractive effort with an increase in speed is because the faster the valves are working to admit (and exhaust) steam into the cylinders, the less time there is for the steam to expand into and out of the cylinder. Exhausted steam is helped out by the cylinder head itself pushing it out and so the main choking point for exhaust steam is in the passageways to the blast pipe and at the blast pipe itself, resulting in back pressure. Admitted steam however does not have a closing volume to help squeeze it into the cylinder - the space vacated by the cylinder will create a vacuum and help to draw the steam in but not by much, especially at low cutoffs, so overall the smaller amount of steam admitted of course results in a lower pressure even before cut-off and the expansion phase, so you get a steady drop in tractive effort.

This is the main reason why you normally had to drive a short-travel valve loco at a minimum of 30% cut-off before the loco started to stop doing useful work, although as we have discussed in another thread there are real life cases of locomotives motoring along in midgear, which I put down to dodgy valve gear. ;) Another interesting case study can be found in the development work of Sir Nigel Gresley as CME of the LNER. His A1 Pacifics, as originally built, were pretty crap to be honest; they had short-travel piston valves and so to get anywhere at the sort of speeds the LNER Pacifics were legendary for, they had to be driven at a medium nominal cutoff otherwise the power wasn't there, and they were terrible monsters in terms of fuel economy. Only when they adopted some of the features of the GWR Castle, having had a naughty peek at Swindon's secrets whilst Pendennis Castle was shedded at Doncaster during the A1 vs Castle trials, including the long-travel valves amongst other things, did the A1s (and later A3s) seriously start to turn into the legends they are considered today.

Kind regards,
Chris
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby TrabantDeLuxe » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:52 pm

AndiS wrote:I have read two different claims about these curves, and I never had the patience or time to play with these things.
Theory 1: All these curves are multiplied just like you say. Sounds extremely sensible to me, which sounds like a reason for this not to be true.
Theory 2: The end result for TE is the maximum of all the curves (multiplied by MaxForce, of course). So these curves would cap each other.

I would make the second one (TE over speed) a horizontal line at 1, to eliminate its effect, irrespective of which of the two theories is right.


Very valid theories. I should investigate this. Shall we set a deadline at wednesday, 24:00? I bet you know of a proper way of doing telemetry into a .csv.

One thing to consider: Shonky code may consider the value be zero beyond 90 mph if you draw the graph up to 90 mph. So I would always draw it to 160 mph or whatever, with a horizontal section filling the unreasonable range.


I consider 90 mph a speed that will never be passed. I recently read a publication saying highest average speeds on the SS where 78 kph (49 mph). Max permitted was 55 mph. Another publication (I know I should give sources) stated that a design rule was to design for 1.1 * service speed. Still, you've raised a valid point.

I agree that the falloff of the TE at speed is due to the fill grade going down, so this is already covered.

However, the backpressure issue may well be worse at higher speed (though that is a bit of speculation on my side) as pumping out the steam at high speed (that is, high piston speed) may see more resistance (akin to air drag, whatever you call that in the case of the ejector/nozzle through which the steam passes into the chimney). But I don't have any serious source at hand and the effect may well be small.

There are also some mechanical issues at high speed with all the kinetic energy of the parts moving to and fro which might lead to an increase of the internal resistance of the gear. Just another speculation.


The issue with back pressure is that -with my limited knowledge of fluid mechanics- it's a horrible thing to have to simulate. That it is there, and significant, is absolutely true. I would also expect friction losses in the gear (remember, no roller bearings!) to increase as a function of speed. Furthermore, there is the effect of valve opening speed, which is especially noticable with short travel valves.

Both speculations together would motivate me to make the TE over speed some 0.9 at maximum speed (and horizontal from there to practical infinity). But first, I would try with 1.0 for all speed ratings.

The speed cap should only happen because of excessive steam consumption at high speed (plus, to a lesser degree, increased air drag). And you can't maintain it for long as you need an optimal firebed and that will vane quickly and having the firebox door open adds cold air to what goes through the tubes. It is things like that that should impose the limit.


This has got me thinking. Googling "TE vs speed steam locomotive" and the likes, one is presented with charts that already take into account the reduction of cutoff, and thus these charts can not really serve any purpose. Incidentally, they look exactly like what RS.com mentions in their dev doc.

The question however is, does one design a boiler around a loco, or a loco around a boiler? I've always presumed that first, you design a steam engine (as in the pistons and valve gear bit) that performs to certain standard (i.e. 300t train @ 60 mph), compute the steam consumption of said engine, and then design a boiler that can meet this demand and has room to spare for extras (generators, steam heat, air pumps, injectors). To me it seems odd to have a loco capable of 60 mph, that is only limited by it's boiler.

Anyway, I'm off to read chapelon. Maybe.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:33 pm

The easy part is the global speculation about how an engine is designed.

First of all, steam production is the classic speed limiting factor in practice, in connection with train load, grade and schedule (stopping or through train). Even the earliest engines had impressive maximum speeds, they just could not pull much at such a speed.

The gist of what I read about engine design is this:

First, there is maximum axle load on the routes where the engine is to be deployed. Multiply that by the number of driven axles you can manage to run through curves and you get the maximum force defined by friction. (There is not much you can do about the friction coefficient of the wheels on rail, but you can get up to 6 axles coupled with a bag of tricks.) Running axles are mentioned below.

Now build the best boiler that suits the total weight as computed above (after subtracting the other parts of the engine). I.e., maximise the heat transmitting surface. Add as much superheating as the grease that keeps the cylinders tight will stand.

Then build a firebox that can produce the heat thus transferred. This mostly means making it wide (i.e, between drivers or more often after the last drivers, or above drivers; and deep, which is limited by the throw of the fireman. Or go for a stoker or burn oil. The type of coal is relevant, too, though that was generally given by the region where the engine ran.

For the cylinder, I don't remember the upper limit on the stroke. I do remember that there were legal limits on the travel speed of the piston, and even without them, you need very balanced gear to push the number of times it goes to and fro. That equals the revolutions of the drivers, and their size is limited by the loading gauge and the boiler size. At any rate, you can't have monster drivers and a monster boiler on European rails.

The maximum speed of the piston, its stroke and the drivers define the theoretical maximum speed. The practical experience of running at such speed will make the officials define the actual maximum speed somewhere below this. Actually, where there is no legal limit on the piston speed, you just see how fast you can run before the shaking and stomping becomes unacceptable.

Now the big question is - how much train load can be taken?

The power you get is defined by how much steam you can get per hour and the regulator setting at which you run at that speed (and the actual boiler pressure). The formula I use (and MSTS did so, too), is:

boiler pressure * reverser setting * number of cylinders * radius of cylinders * radius of cylinders * Pi * stroke divided by the double diameter of drivers

If boiler pressure is in kg/cm², the result is in kg (force). Multiply by 9.81 to get N. Ask Wikipedia for bar and such and how to shift the comma there, anyway bar ties in with N without ugly factor. :-)

(There is a range of losses to take into account, the traditional figure in MSTS was 6%.)

The force you need depends on grade and train load, plus resistance in curves and air drag, to a lesser degree. You could put in desired acceleration and train load, but this did not seem to be as much concern as fast trains did not stop often and using an engine that could pull a heavy train up a serious grade for heavy yet swift stopping passenger services yielded fair enough results.

Now that you are disappointed with the train load that you can pull up some given grade at decent speed, you will shout for higher engine weight to allow for a bigger boiler. Running axles are the solution, but with the decrease of the fraction of weight that sits on drivers. This is only a pain when running at low speed and it can be overcome with care and sanding. Yet it makes such engines unsuitable for constant operation at lower speed.

You can also up the boiler pressure (subject to limitation on boiler material), invest into the complicated stuff that Chapelon and other did to optimise exhaust side, use compound engines for more efficient use of high pressure, or talk your customer into improving the permanent way so you can up the axle load.

End of 'How Andi sees train history'.


The bit about telemetry into a .csv, I don't get.

I looked up some curves from East Germany in the 60ies (Merkbuch für Triebfahrzeuge) that shows regulator setting an TE, over speed, and it looks like the reduction in TE cannot only be explained by the reduction in fill grade. However, I have no idea about the quality of those graphs and sure enough the exhaust issue plays in there, too. Like you said, the latter is a very complex thing. Every time I read up on that, I get a head ache.
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Re: Rather ancient carriages I have made, looking for critiques

Postby AndiS » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:51 pm

I looked up some old stuff (too few pages from Igel: Handbuch des Dampflokomotivbaues). He states that "todays", i.e, some time soon after 1915, engines run most economical at a effective cylinder pressure of 3.6 to 3.9 kg/cm² (51-55 psi).

The regulator setting to achieve that is computed using
effective cylinder pressure (called steam chest, maybe, but I got confused over time) = regulator setting * boiler pressure.

The key role of this ideal pressure is that the Verein Deutscher Eisenbahnverwaltungen (union of German railway operators) conducted lots of measurements and published figures for TE relative to TE at optimal speed in Organ für die Fortschritte des Eisenbahnwesens in 1915. These gold standard figures of the time read

0.4 V ... 0.78
0.5 V ... 0.82
0.6 V ... 0.86
0.7 V ... 0.906
0.8 V ... 0.945
0.9 V ... 0.979
1.0 V ... 1.00
1.1 V ... 0.985
1.2 V ... 0.947

V is the optimal speed. The factor is multiplied with TE at that speed. It is computed like this:
(shortcut: set V to 0.83 of maximum speed and assumed that the maximum TE computed elsewhere is attained then, and you are done.)

C1, the universal constant that represents the relation of cylinders and wheels is:
square of cylinder diameter * stroke * cylinder count / double of driver diameter

The logic is this: The steam pressure of the (in kg or N per cm²) pushes the piston which for each stroke causes half a rotation of the driver.

So your chosen optimal pressure in the cylinder (3.5 - 3.9 kg/cm²) multiplied by C1 is the TE under optimal conditions. C1 multiplied by boiler pressure * maximum regulator is the maximum TE, but that is not important here.

You may have your MaxPower from other computations. Here is how Igel calculates it - if only for a different view.

He starts from the coal throughput of the grate. A freight engine is assumed to burn 450 kg per hour per m². For an express passenger engine, this figure is 500.

Then there is coal usage per (German) PS. This is 1.6 kg/PS for single expansion and 13 kg/cm² boiler pressure, 1,32 for 15 kg/cm².

With this figures, you can compute PS (aka MaxPower) from the grate area, e.g., area in square metres * 450 / 1.32 = maximum power in PS.

However you got your power, it relates to force via this formula:

power (PS) = force (kg) * speed (km/h) / 270.

So you can compute this famous optimal speed as MaxPower * 270 / MaxForce and the 270 will go away if you convert these PS to SI units, I assume.

If all this sounds too stupid, you can simply assume the idea speed at 83% or 80% of maximum speed. Looking at charts that plot power of speed, you will find the maximum about there.

And this, finally, takes us to practical usability of VDE's findings: You can take my table above, set V = 0.83 * MaxSpeed and make that your TE over speed CSV !

The fine thing here is that you save yourself from reading Chapelon. The not so fine one is that it is all black box engineering. But then again, your engine is an early one, so simulating it based on some assumptions from early 1900ies is sort of prototypical.
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