Semaphore Signals

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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:16 pm

Hi,
I like the semaphore signal system and I decided to make some Signal Sets.
Everything is going well until I started testing them in a dummy circular route like we have in a modal railways.
There are few things I would like to ask in the community as I am not aware of the operations of the Semaphore Signals in deep level.
I place 2 LQ Stop signals at each straight line and placed them correctly. I also placed two distant signals LQ.
I started the scenario with a Academy Steam Loco and I found that the signal do no clear by itself, as I am aware that I need to restart the scenario, which I did.
The stop signal and distant signal on clears if I press either TAB or I am very near to the signal ( either Stop or Distant ).
Distant Signals.jpg
Home Signal 01.jpg

Also the light do not illuminates well while looking at the signal from different angles.
Home Signal 02.jpg

I am using ALGB LNW_Signals signals from UKTS as reference.
Kindly suggest.
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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:19 pm

In this subsequent post I am attaching more screenshots.
When I came very near to the Stop signal, it only clears otherwise it is in Restrictive State showing RED.
Home Signal Clear 01.jpg
Home Signal Clear 02.jpg

The distant signal is also not visible in 2D map, but I see them in HUD. :cry:
Route.JPG
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Re: Semaphore Signals

Postby Widewanderer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:24 pm

G'Day!

Signal behaviour is governed by the scripts which control them. From the outset, please understand that I do not write the scripts myself - lua scripting is still something I have not gotten my head around properly :? However, I have become reasonably proficient in editing signal blueprints, and attaching other people's scripts to run them.

For decent realism, I have at various times employed scripts by Mark Brinton, and laterly AndiS - the "default" Kuju signal scripts are, in comparison, pretty awful and simplistic, particularly with signals clearing automatically behind a train when passed in a reverse direction, something which just wouldn't usually happen in the real world on UK railways. The Brinton and AndiS scripting systems are both very excellent, however my current preference is to use AndiS's scripts, as he has included a very flexible method of linking his "universal" main script with just about any arrangement of signal arms one could think of. He also provides a system of track objects (called "Movement Predictors") for use in scenarios to control the detailed behaviour of signals, such as what to do if a train requires to reverse, or to trigger calling-on aspects. Using the AndiS system requires the negotiating of a pretty steep learning curve initially, but the effort is well worth it. My mission is to try and ease that learning curve for as many interested folk as possible ;)

So, a couple of comments about your loop situation:
Firstly, signal scripts interact with one another by passing "messages" back and forth, to let each other know how their states are changing as a scenario progresses. This system of passing messages between signals is complex (and the exact detail is currently beyond my own understanding!); furthermore, the logic employed by the script writers tends to be a bit individual, each to their own - for that reason, signals powered by different families of scripts won't generally work if mixed together. As a rule of thumb, a route builder needs to choose one system of signal scripting, and stick to it.

So far, I have never seen signals working successfully in a loop like yours - my guess is that the scripting logic assumes that the afore-mentioned signal messages are intended to be passed back and forth in a linear fashion. I tried to signal a circular track myself once, but ended up with the signals all "locked up" - nothing would work until I cut the loop and went back to working linearly! (Mark/Andi - if you're reading this, any comment?) Sadly, I am actually not surprised that your circular-track signals do not work properly - I am guessing that signal messages are perhaps ending up back at their points of origin in some fashion, and that this is somehow causing a bit of a "feedback loop" and confusing the script's logic :( Just guessing, I'm afraid.

If your stop signals are based on Anthony Brailsford's LNW set, then you are almost certainly using Mark Brinton scripts. I think I am right in saying that Brinton-scripted signals will only clear at the very start of a scenario when a train actually begins to move towards them. Furthermore, a signal needs to "detect" the approach of a train before it will respond at the very start of a scenario, and by default with Brinton signals I believe this doesn't happen until the train is actually moving towards, and is within 100m. With the AndiS system, this "detection distance" can be varied more widely through the signal's configuration on a route.

Distant signals are not set up as "stop" signals, so are not usually displayed on the 2D diagram or HUD. By my understanding, not seeing the distant signal on the 2D/HUD is perfectly normal.

Understanding signalling in TS requires a lot of study and experimentation. I'll do my best to help out where I can, although I won't be able to fix problems with the actual script code directly - that bit is a little above my pay grade!

Best wishes,
Rob :-D

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Re: Semaphore Signals

Postby AndiS » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:39 pm

Thanks for volunteering.

The one bit that is missing in the introduction is that what AI does and what the player does or sees is two totally different things.

It is important to understand that AI does not care about signals. AI only cares about the locations of signals defined by the unnumbered link that comes up first when you place the signa. AI enters any block between two signals if there is no other train in it.

Oh and then there is the bit about the switches. Signals send messages to each other and they can get lost in switches that are not "wrapped" by signal links. That means that, in the direction of travel, you first pass the unnumbered link 0 of a signal, then some switches, then a numbered link of the same signal. This is the normal case but it is often overlooked at minor locations. Only if things are prepared like this - for all possible paths across a junction - then the signal can "lift the message across the switches".

Regarding the circle, you are definately outside any warranty here. Such a setup is not seen at any real railway. Various scripts will react in various ways but I would not expect perfect customer satisfaction. Triangles and circular routes that are made up of a series of blocks are perfectly fine. Just one block certainly not. And you why: It will never clear in the prototype! A signal only clears if the block between it and the next signal is clear. Your own train prevents that the signal clears for it!

Regarding the HUD and map, these are still other to know and live with aspects:

If a signal has "is stopping" = true defined, then AI will see it as a block boundary and you will see it in the HUD. It can still have a single yellow arm in this game.

The blob shown on the map is totally independent of everything else. It is totally under the control of the signal script. In particular for signals with more than one arm, the signal scripter is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to choosing a map representation and you best forget about the map as a means to check signal working.

The initial clearing for the train works like this:

Default Kuju signals will always clear for the most unlikely movements, looking stupid.
Mark's signals initially will only clear when you get very near.
My signals will clear initially irrespective of the distance. When you reverse the train without the movement predictor in place, then the approach distance comes into play (200 to 500 in various default settings).

Please note that "my" etc. is imprecise here. It stands for "driven by my scripts". The person who authored the scripts and the person who created the 3D shape is rarely identical.
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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:07 pm

As a rule of thumb, a route builder needs to choose one system of signal scripting, and stick to it

I am sticking to Semaphore 2 Aspect LQ only for my route as in real life it had those before 90s but in mean time they were replaced by Color Light Signals

I have never seen signals working successfully in a loop like yours

I have deleted the loop, as I was not aware how a small loop could be used to test a signal system, I laid a fresh piece of straight tracks now

Brinton-scripted signals will only clear at the very start of a scenario when a train actually begins to move towards them

I have noticed that Signal clear only when I am very near to the STOP/DISTANT Signals, is this happens in Real Railways also?

With the AndiS system, this "detection distance" can be varied more widely through the signal's configuration on a route

I will look into it next

Distant signals are not set up as "stop" signals, so are not usually displayed on the 2D diagram or HUD. By my understanding, not seeing the distant signal on the 2D/HUD is perfectly normal

Ok, I have understood it. But unlink Color Light Signals, do I need a End of Line Signal for Semaphore Signals also? IIRC, CLS should have a End of Line Signal
Last edited by RailWorkshop on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:15 pm

Oh and then there is the bit about the switches. Signals send messages to each other and they can get lost in switches that are not "wrapped" by signal links. That means that, in the direction of travel, you first pass the unnumbered link 0 of a signal, then some switches, then a numbered link of the same signal. This is the normal case but it is often overlooked at minor locations. Only if things are prepared like this - for all possible paths across a junction - then the signal can "lift the message across the switches".

I am aware about this situation as the signal will be confused if Link 0 is passed and Link 1 is not crossed by the train. I saw this in a video by Matt in one of his tutorials.

Lets see what can be done next.
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Re: Semaphore Signals

Postby AndiS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:50 pm

In real life, someone decides which train runs where. This is the very first thing.

The a) the driver receives orders and b) the signaller receives orders so they both know in advance what to do.

Then the signaller sets switches and then clears the signal for the one movement that is due.

When the driver sees the signal, he starts his train.


In the game, the player can drive in any direction. AI trains start at the predefined time and runs them to the next link 0 or farther, if track is clear.
AI sets switches at somewhat unpredictable times, sometimes rather too early, sometimes almost too late.

Signals are not informed by anyone. All they see is switch movements when they start to happen.


In this situation, you can follow three different routes:

1) You clear the signal whenever there is a odd chance that the train might pass it. This is the infamous clearing of signals for the opposite direction when a train passes, as done be default scripts. There is always a chance that a train reverses, but while it is running at speed in one direction, it is totally uncalled for to anticipate its reversing.

2) You clear only when you believe you can be very sure that the driver really wants to pass this signal now, as Mark Brinton does it. This comes at the cost of the driver initially drawing his train towards a closed signal, just hoping that it would clear.

3) You can place some objects that are only visible in the editor in bespoke places. This is my method. These objects send specific messages to signals. E.g. there is one that you place behind the tail of the train as a promise that you will not drive backwards initially and this object hides the train from the signal in the reverse direction so it does not clear. Likewise, the scenario author places "reversal predictors" where the train is expected to reverse. The author must double such information himself because the game hides the information in the version scenario instructions from the signals.


Regarding the End of Line Signal, this too depends on the script system/family. Some need them, some not. I don't remember whether Mark's need them. Mine don't, but only because part of the information needed is giving by bespoke characters in the signal properties fly-out on the right-hand side.

On a side note, the default scripts for CLS are not compatible with the default scripts for semaphores. We should speak of two distinct script families, Kuju CLS and Kuju semaphore, thought they share some of the logic.
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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:46 pm

I am much aware that real life parameter can be replicated in this game but one can not expect the signals to behave as they are in real world.

Thanks for the reply, I will look back here after some more work on my signals.
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Semaphore Signals

Postby RailWorkshop » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:55 pm

Gantry Signal
Image
Last edited by RailWorkshop on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Semaphore Signals

Postby VictoryWorks » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:20 am

They look great.
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